Dear Worthless Cockroach I hope you don’t mind me following up our conversation with an open letter like this, but I’m sure you’re not the only one who feels like you do. Let me see if I’m capturing your question. I think what you’re saying is this:
Hi Tony, I was going write questioning he term "unconditional love" but others have done so already and you have replied wisely. I would therefore simply make this comment: God's love for his people is better than "unconditional love" it is "eternal love" - Jeremiah 31:3. In this we can find great assurance.
This was really helpful! I have thought so long and hard about total depravity I had actually genuinely forgotten that God might have made me with some value in the first place.
There's a vast difference, IMHO, between being unworthy (which we all are) and being worthless. Jesus died for sinners, and for the lost, and for the unworthy. why would he die for the worthless?
Of all the articles Ian sent through this week, this was the one I clicked on because when my thoughts are warpy, this is one of the dungeons into which I descend. 'I'm so disgusting, pathetic, worthless and useless that the Son of God had to face the cross to rescue me. Why go around today pretending to be valuable?' God brought the sparrows of Matt 10 to mind as I watched seagulls the other day and wondered (with Larry Crabb) whether I had any 'security' and/or 'significance' (I think this is Crabb's summary of what every human person needs...) apart from God's redemption. I think with the bobbing seagulls I remembered that I did- worth more than many of them- but perhaps eternal/spiritual/permanent 'security' comes only with redemption in Christ? And there is a new significance to life in genuinely being invited to help others see how great he is and simply to live a life of love.
Anyway, thanks for the article Tony addressing this question! It's funny to see in myself a much greater encouragement to be thought valuable like sparrows (or seagulls) rather than like cockroaches!
Thanks for the quick reply. If I understand you correctly and I don’t think I did first time so I’m going to read and listen again (concurrently), I’m not sure if this rests easy with the rest of scripture but then as I said not sure I’ve understood you ‘right’. I’ve read and listened to you lots for many years so confident it will make sense when I read again. Thanks brother
Thanks Steve, and a good question. To say that "I don't feel 'lovable'" means that I don't see much good in me that would attract the love or affection of others. This connects with what 'love' really is — our 'affective knowledge' of something good that moves our will to seek that good (to want it, or embrace it, to bring it into being, to see it flourish etc.) The truth of our creation by God (in his goodness) is the anchor for our 'lovableness' as creatures, which is one part of what the article was arguing. Thanks again. TP
I wonder if Gods love is actually “better than unconditional” as David Powlison writes? Unconditional has a bit of “loving us as we are and leaving us as we are” idea to many folks; whereas “better than unconditional” connotes more of a “lifting love” or “changing us” kind of love.
Thanks Melinda — yes, as I said to Simon above, 'unconditional' is the colloquial term we use to talk about love that is given without regard to the 'condition' (goodness or merit) of the person we're loving. But it probably doesn't have the depth as an idea for us to put too much weight on it as a theological description! What you're saying is quite right — the love that God loves us with seeks our good — it's not sentimental or misty-eyed or complacent about the 'condition' we're in. It redeems and changes us. Praise God!
Not sure sinful or sinless are categories we can apply to our creepy friends that creep upon the ground. But we do struggle to see them as a species of God's good creation, don't we?
I wasn't being as facetious as it might seem. Your article led to think about the uniqueness of humanity - by virtue of being made in the image of God - and any inherent value given to us over and above the rest of creation, as per Psalm 8: "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?". Part of that value is the nature of and comprehension of the relationship to the creator. Whilst Psalm 8 directs us to look upward at his glory, leading to humility, rather than looking at or appropriating our own position of relative glory in the world, but God deigned to reach down to redeem us.
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." (Heb 2:9).
Thanks Andrew. Good thoughts. I started off talking about relative value (cockroaches and sparrows v humanity) but didn't have time/space to develop that idea — it's a big question in its own right, esp in relation to environmentalism etc. I have some posts planned down the track on that subject (having received a number of requests).
Thank you, Tony! I caught wind of your work through Phillip Jensens talks- through YouTube. I have enjoyed your thoughts, Thus far. I have sincerely appreciated The gentleness and grace you use when expressing, truth in scripture. I pray You continue to grow in his grace and love.
Dear Dad. Great post today. Rich in the gospel of God's love, so very edifying. Just a question (a kind of heretical one which I've always thought are the best kind). I've often wondered whether 'unconditional' is the right word to describe God's love given this special love of God that's in Christ is only for those who repent of their sins (through his mercy, of course). What do you think? Is there a difference between"unmerited" and "unconditional", for example? Curiously. From a loved cockroach.
Interesting thought Simon. 'Unconditional' is the colloquial way we refer to love that is given and endures, even if the other person doesn't deserve it or doesn't always respond well. Like a parent's love for a child. Is God's love for the elect sinner like that? I think I'd want to say that God sets his love upon us prior to any response of repentance; that he draws forth and enables our response of repentance and faith by his Spirit (as you also say). So perhaps we could say: Forgiveness of sins and salvation is conditional upon repentance and faith, but the meeting of that condition is only possible by the prior 'unconditional' love of God for us in Christ. Does that work?
That works for me Tony. I guess your answer underlines that the 'us' in your penultimate sentence is the 'elect' but not all God's creatures. It also underlines that this 'unconditional' love is only found 'in Christ'. I certainly agree with all that. Although I will continue to reflect on the 'colloquial' nature of the expression (a good description I think) and whether in a world that's very drawn to universalism and cheap grace, it's a good way of describing the love of God? I think I feel more comfortable with it when talking to a believer (where your parental love comparison works best) and less comfortable using the language in an evangelistic context. Not sure if that makes sense. I'll keep thinking.
Appreciate your thoughtfulness and care in dealing with our weaknesses and foibles, Tony. But could have lived without the photo.
Hi Tony, I was going write questioning he term "unconditional love" but others have done so already and you have replied wisely. I would therefore simply make this comment: God's love for his people is better than "unconditional love" it is "eternal love" - Jeremiah 31:3. In this we can find great assurance.
This was really helpful! I have thought so long and hard about total depravity I had actually genuinely forgotten that God might have made me with some value in the first place.
There's a vast difference, IMHO, between being unworthy (which we all are) and being worthless. Jesus died for sinners, and for the lost, and for the unworthy. why would he die for the worthless?
Nice way of putting it. Thanks!
Of all the articles Ian sent through this week, this was the one I clicked on because when my thoughts are warpy, this is one of the dungeons into which I descend. 'I'm so disgusting, pathetic, worthless and useless that the Son of God had to face the cross to rescue me. Why go around today pretending to be valuable?' God brought the sparrows of Matt 10 to mind as I watched seagulls the other day and wondered (with Larry Crabb) whether I had any 'security' and/or 'significance' (I think this is Crabb's summary of what every human person needs...) apart from God's redemption. I think with the bobbing seagulls I remembered that I did- worth more than many of them- but perhaps eternal/spiritual/permanent 'security' comes only with redemption in Christ? And there is a new significance to life in genuinely being invited to help others see how great he is and simply to live a life of love.
Anyway, thanks for the article Tony addressing this question! It's funny to see in myself a much greater encouragement to be thought valuable like sparrows (or seagulls) rather than like cockroaches!
Thanks for the quick reply. If I understand you correctly and I don’t think I did first time so I’m going to read and listen again (concurrently), I’m not sure if this rests easy with the rest of scripture but then as I said not sure I’ve understood you ‘right’. I’ve read and listened to you lots for many years so confident it will make sense when I read again. Thanks brother
Thanks again Tony. Another helpful discussion launcher! Can you explain a little more about what it means when you say the word ‘lovable’? Steve
Thanks Steve, and a good question. To say that "I don't feel 'lovable'" means that I don't see much good in me that would attract the love or affection of others. This connects with what 'love' really is — our 'affective knowledge' of something good that moves our will to seek that good (to want it, or embrace it, to bring it into being, to see it flourish etc.) The truth of our creation by God (in his goodness) is the anchor for our 'lovableness' as creatures, which is one part of what the article was arguing. Thanks again. TP
I wonder if Gods love is actually “better than unconditional” as David Powlison writes? Unconditional has a bit of “loving us as we are and leaving us as we are” idea to many folks; whereas “better than unconditional” connotes more of a “lifting love” or “changing us” kind of love.
Thanks Melinda — yes, as I said to Simon above, 'unconditional' is the colloquial term we use to talk about love that is given without regard to the 'condition' (goodness or merit) of the person we're loving. But it probably doesn't have the depth as an idea for us to put too much weight on it as a theological description! What you're saying is quite right — the love that God loves us with seeks our good — it's not sentimental or misty-eyed or complacent about the 'condition' we're in. It redeems and changes us. Praise God!
Thanks Tony.
Are cockroaches sinless?
Not sure sinful or sinless are categories we can apply to our creepy friends that creep upon the ground. But we do struggle to see them as a species of God's good creation, don't we?
I wasn't being as facetious as it might seem. Your article led to think about the uniqueness of humanity - by virtue of being made in the image of God - and any inherent value given to us over and above the rest of creation, as per Psalm 8: "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?". Part of that value is the nature of and comprehension of the relationship to the creator. Whilst Psalm 8 directs us to look upward at his glory, leading to humility, rather than looking at or appropriating our own position of relative glory in the world, but God deigned to reach down to redeem us.
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." (Heb 2:9).
Thanks Andrew. Good thoughts. I started off talking about relative value (cockroaches and sparrows v humanity) but didn't have time/space to develop that idea — it's a big question in its own right, esp in relation to environmentalism etc. I have some posts planned down the track on that subject (having received a number of requests).
Thank you, Tony! I caught wind of your work through Phillip Jensens talks- through YouTube. I have enjoyed your thoughts, Thus far. I have sincerely appreciated The gentleness and grace you use when expressing, truth in scripture. I pray You continue to grow in his grace and love.
Thanks for the encouragement Lance!
Dear Dad. Great post today. Rich in the gospel of God's love, so very edifying. Just a question (a kind of heretical one which I've always thought are the best kind). I've often wondered whether 'unconditional' is the right word to describe God's love given this special love of God that's in Christ is only for those who repent of their sins (through his mercy, of course). What do you think? Is there a difference between"unmerited" and "unconditional", for example? Curiously. From a loved cockroach.
Interesting thought Simon. 'Unconditional' is the colloquial way we refer to love that is given and endures, even if the other person doesn't deserve it or doesn't always respond well. Like a parent's love for a child. Is God's love for the elect sinner like that? I think I'd want to say that God sets his love upon us prior to any response of repentance; that he draws forth and enables our response of repentance and faith by his Spirit (as you also say). So perhaps we could say: Forgiveness of sins and salvation is conditional upon repentance and faith, but the meeting of that condition is only possible by the prior 'unconditional' love of God for us in Christ. Does that work?
That works for me Tony. I guess your answer underlines that the 'us' in your penultimate sentence is the 'elect' but not all God's creatures. It also underlines that this 'unconditional' love is only found 'in Christ'. I certainly agree with all that. Although I will continue to reflect on the 'colloquial' nature of the expression (a good description I think) and whether in a world that's very drawn to universalism and cheap grace, it's a good way of describing the love of God? I think I feel more comfortable with it when talking to a believer (where your parental love comparison works best) and less comfortable using the language in an evangelistic context. Not sure if that makes sense. I'll keep thinking.